In this episode of The Hayley Osborne Show I am talking with communication and confidence coach Con Koutsikas!
I just love a good alliteration as well! Lots of power in all those “C’s”. Sitting down to have a “cuppa with Con” as a guest on the show was awesome. I deep dive into the world of confidence and what it takes to become confident as a business owner.
Having the ability to be a great speaker and communicator are part of the foundations you need inside your business that will translate throughout your business and its success.
These skills contribute to improvement and better outcomes in every area of business, such as sales, customer service and controlling fear and anxiety around presenting your thoughts and ideas (standing up and speaking out).
Con is honest, real and shares some great examples of not only why, but how you can build on these attributes that contribute to a successful business.
You can connect with Con here:
www.conkoutsikas.com
https://www.facebook.com/theconkoutsikas/
https://www.instagram.com/conkoutsikas
SUMMARY
0:00:01 Introduction to the Hayley Osborne show and Hayley’s new marketing tool for small businesses
0:04:16 Introduction of guest Con Koutsikas and his background
0:06:16 Importance of public speaking and communication skills for business owners
0:08:10 Top 3 tips for improving communication skills:
- Understand the psychology of communication and build confidence/self-esteem
- Record yourself and be open to feedback
- Focus on improving tonality and body language
0:12:16 The importance of smiling and showing up confidently
0:13:28 Developing storytelling skills for business owners
0:15:59 Why speaking is the new competitive advantage for small businesses
0:18:09 Tips for reducing fear and anxiety around public speaking
0:19:45 Statistics on public speaking fear and its impact on career advancement
0:26:44 Con’s personal story of discovering public speaking through Toastmasters
0:33:13 How listeners can work with Con – website, workshops, coaching0:36:15 Closing remarks and outro
Hayley Osborne
Welcome to another episode of The Hayley Osborne show, and today I have with me, a very special guest. But before we get into today’s episode, I wanted to tell you about a new key marketing tool that I have built for your small business, which you can access over on my website.
It is the three essential posts that your business needs to get more people through the door with templates and swipe copy. This is a must for you to implement into your business, to optimize your social media and really make the most out of these platforms, because at the end of the day, we want to drive people to us, but also then move us, move them away from the platforms to capture, you know, a beautiful, warm audience for you.
And so, these three posts are the things that you need in order to really optimize your social media. And not only do you have those three posts, but I’m telling you what you need, and then I’m telling you how to do it with the templates and the swipe copy that I’ve got.
So, it’s literally plug and play for you to have the easiest win, because I want to see more business owners showing up better on these platforms, and I think that with this marketing tool you can do that. So today we have the lovely concuss joining us, and con for those of you that don’t know who he is, he is an accomplished and engaging, entertaining keynote speaker and public speaking and communication expert.
He’s a trainer and a coach as well, who’s really passionate about helping businesses and individuals create greater success by teaching them speaking and communication skills. And so this is something that I find to be really important for business owners, which is why I wanted to get con on the show to talk about, you know, his zone of genius, and how he can teach us as business owners to really harbor and utilize these skills to improve, to have better outcomes in our business, especially when it comes to, you know, sales and storytelling, to create more sales in your business, just your general customer service, ways to help you to be able to control the fear and anxiety Around presenting your thoughts and ideas to your audience, whether that be virtually or online.
And so, Khan’s got a wealth of experience. He’s got over 30 years practical commercial experience, and he’s the host of his own podcast, a couple with the conversationalist, very cleverly titled, which I have been like had the pleasure of being a guest on and so I really wanted him to come in to talk about communication and tools, to be able to be better communicators, to be able to stand up with confidence, whether it be on your social media, whether it be through video, or whether it be speaking on a stage or and really selling what it is that you do as a business.
So, without further ado, let’s get into today’s episode, hi con and welcome to the Hayley Osborne show. I am thrilled to have you as a guest today, joining me. How are you?
Con Koutsikas
Thank you very much, Hayley, absolute pleasure to be on your program. Really, really excited and looking forward to sharing some great stuff with your audience.
Hayley Osborne
So, I’ve done a little intro beforehand, for our listeners to listen to. But what I like to get my guests to do is, who are you and what do you do in your own words? Please.
Con Koutsikas
In my own words, I help people and businesses achieve greater success through learning public speaking and communication and presentation skills. I’m a keynote speaker, public speaking and communication expert, trainer and coach.
Hayley Osborne
Yep, and your business is Concuss.
Con Koutsikas
That’s how my business is. My name Absolutely.
Hayley Osborne
I love that
Con Koutsikas
Google me, and I rank quite well, which is great, definitely, definitely, just my name. Yeah,
Hayley Osborne
yes. So, let’s have a little chat about, like, the importance of public speaking and confidence. So, we’ve had chats before. I’ve been on your podcast, and I really wanted to get you here, especially for my listeners, who are 99% small business owners, who you know we all struggle with, like lacking confidence.
You know, a lot of small business owners don’t do any public speaking, and I guess, like, the reason for having you here is, how important is it to boost your profile as a business owner when you can have the confidence to take hold of the microphone and stand up like I know, let me just before you answer that question, because I know that this is such a passion for you, but when, as a marketer, somebody like me, when you can do something at the top of your funnel right meet where you reach lots of other people all at once, and you do it once. It’s important.
So, let’s talk specifically about what you do in that regard and how important it is. Okay?
Con Koutsikas
I think it’s important to go back and just clarify a really, really important point for your audience. If you ask the majority of people their idea of what public speaking is, the majority of people will see somebody on a big stage talking to a really, really big group of people.
Yeah, it is indeed that. But public speaking, in essence, is communication, and it’s our interaction right now, is a form of public speaking for your audiences, when they’re doing their marketing, their promotions, at the top of their funnel is public speaking when they’re in a sales environment, it’s public speaking. Public speaking, in essence, is communication, human communication and the rules of engagement, the psychology aspect, the body language, the tonality of our language, apply across the board.
It’s really important that they understand that, first and foremost, in terms of the importance of communication skills for the business owners, everyone’s in sales, whether you’re selling a product or service, we’re selling ourselves and we’re selling our ideas.
And somebody can be a 10 in terms of their level of expertise, whether it’s technical expertise or in their product or service, but if the communication skills are only a three, they will only ever be perceived as a three. I can’t stress the importance of communication skills in every aspect of business. Yeah.
Hayley Osborne
So, what about if business owners are sort of sitting back thinking, oh, do I have great communication skills, or do I not like, what are some what are your like, top three tips on how to kind of polish up that in in as a, you know, feather in your cap, like, sure you know what.
What are some of the things that you teach or like, advise people how to get better. The
Con Koutsikas
first thing is, one of the key things that I focus on is the psychology of communication, and that’s not only understanding your listeners psychology, how they receive and process information, but also how we view ourselves.
And there’s a direct correlation between people’s confidence and self-esteem and their willingness and or ability to confidently speak. Yeah. So, the first thing that I stress is you have to have a higher level of confidence or self-esteem in yourself to be able to be an effective communicator.
That’s the first thing, and that that underpins everything. If you’re not, if you don’t feel good about yourself, it shows that’s the first thing. The second thing is, what I suggest to people is to record yourself. Do a little talk, get your husband, your partner, your kids, to video.
You. You know, we’ve got these little devices nowadays that are just tremendous and look at it and go, Okay, what do I like? And what don’t I like? Because there’s a high probability that what you see and you go, oh my God, that’s cringe worthy.
There’s a likely. That somebody else is going to have the same, same opinion. And it’s about everything we do. Hayley is subconscious. 95% of our behaviors are subconscious, and we can’t change a behavior until the subconscious becomes conscious, and we do that by looking at those videos. So, understanding that.
And secondly, it’s about being open to feedback and go, you know what? I can get better. I do need to change my tonality, because our tonality is everything.
You know, I can buy the suit. Can buy the shoes, and, you know, 55% of people’s value judgment is based on how we look in body language, but our tonality is, is how we say things, not what we say. Do we speak with confidence? Do we speak with authority? Or are we, oh, you know, really quite sheepish,
Hayley Osborne
Yeah, that’s important. And so, I like to also say, you know, yeah, but how do I get confident in it? You have to show up and do the awkward steps to become confident. If you wait to become confident before you show up and do the thing, it’s you’re never going to do the thing.
It’s like you’ve just got to throw yourself in the deep end, you know? And as podcasters, though, like you and I, both have a podcast. It was the biggest cringe listening to myself.
But you’re right, because I remember when I was like, playing around recording my very first intro and outro for the podcast, and you can tell when you’re smiling, when you’re talking like it is such a thing, and I’ve said that to some of my clients recently that have started podcast is I can tell that you are not smiling, and that is not good in people’s ears.
So, I want you to do it again and with a smile. And it might be awkward at the start, but it’s just so much better that you know you do that because it showcases, you’re passionate about it, right? Because obviously, you started your business for a reason.
So, I think, yeah, showing up with a smile and just doing it regardless. The video thing is such a great tip, though. Watch it back, and if you find yourself, you’re a bit cringey and you seem too serious, or whatever, other people are probably going to think the same thing. So, you got to work on it.
Con Koutsikas
And I say to people that you know part of my presentations, I say, if you walked into a room and nobody knew who you were, and they were all blindfolded and you opened your mouth, what would they think of you? Would they see you as an expert in your field? Would they see you as somebody who’s confident? Would they see you as an authority figure in your industry?
Hayley Osborne
Yeah, that’s interesting. And the
Con Koutsikas
another thing as well, and the other thing like, you know, we say there’s a cliche people who are on who do phone sales or do a lot of work on the phone, and you go, can you hear somebody smile on the phone? You bet you can. Yeah,
Hayley Osborne
absolutely. How important is that? And often it’s the little things that you don’t see that are like, have the ability for you to make the biggest changes.
So, I think it’s really important. So, in terms of how you incorporate, or what, what tips would you incorporate? Or would you give business owners a story to tell?
On top of that, how do people become great storytellers? How do business owners become great storytellers? In your eyes,
Con Koutsikas
storytelling is one of the most important skills to develop, not only as a business owner, but as an employee in your organization. There’s a saying, facts tell, stories sell, and stories have the ability to emotionally impact people, to touch them.
And as you know, Hayley, people make decisions based on emotion and then try and justify with logic. And so and so, your ability to be, not a good storyteller, but a great storyteller, is really important. And everybody’s got stories.
And I suggest to people, have a little book, have a diary or something, and, you know, write them down. It colors your communication, a story about why you got into what you did. You know how your product emotionally affected or had a significant impact on one of your customers?
That’s far more important to a potential client than statistics, about 25% this 30% that ROI of this ROI of that. It’s about your ability to tell a story, a really, really engaging story. And the story is not just the words, the story is the delivery.
The story is the. That you attach to it, your facial gesturing your tonality, because as you identified earlier, your facial gestures affect your tonality and vice versa.
You know, so storytelling is really, really powerful. And everybody’s got stories, everybody’s got stories, I
Hayley Osborne
I like to say you need to be able to tell the same story in, you know, maybe five different ways, because what someone relates to over here is not necessarily what someone can relate to over here.
Even though it’s the same story, you need to be able to relate to different audiences, which is definitely a fine art, and I’ve had to practice that as well. But what I want to ask you is, you, you say, speaking, is the new competitive advantage?
Do you think that small business owners need to have this as a part of their marketing plan moving forward, because it is such a competitive environment
Con Koutsikas
I can’t stress it highly enough, Hayley, and the simplest analogy is, you know, the job market is, is very, very competitive. And typically, you’ll have two applicants that you know, you look at their resume and their skill set, and the skill sets are very, very, very similar.
The defining point for the employer is, how did one sell themselves better than the other? And business is the same, every industry. Well, most industries, I don’t know about all industries, but certainly I would suggest the majority of industries are highly competitive.
Hayley Osborne
Oh, like, you know how many coffee shops are there? That’s my little go to, yeah, highly
Con Koutsikas
competitive. So, my question to the business owners, then is, if you’re in a really highly competitive industry, what’s your point of difference?
And often, it’s people’s communication skills and their ability to articulate their product and or service, their ability to hold a conversation, their ability to maintain a conversation.
And so as much as marketing is important, as much as you know, product knowledge and all those things are absolutely, uh, Paramount. Communication skills are. They’re, they’re life changing,
Hayley Osborne
yeah, because humans buy from humans, right? And that’s where, fundamentally, it lies. And I think that we’re seeing a massive shift in the way that businesses need to market themselves, from talking to people to talking with people, and if you don’t have the fundamentals, right?
So, this goes back to the foundations, which I talk about a lot, that is one of them. So, communication, but public speaking. So are there any tips for you know, getting people on stage that you would recommend to reduce the fear levels, and you know all those things that go with it, or is it just you gotta do the first one?
Con Koutsikas
Well, look, there’s no doubt that confronting whatever challenges you face is a strategy in overcoming your fear. Because obviously, the more we do something, the more comfortable we become at it.
But if you can throw somebody in there and go, Great, I’m going to do this, and I’m confident, and I’m going to confront my fear.
The danger in that, in and of itself, is that if they don’t do it well, and they don’t have processes in terms of controlling their anxiety and their fear, and they don’t have, at a bare minimum, some basic technical skills in terms of vocal tonality, body language, that they can perceive adverse, negative reaction from an audience or a client and misinterpret that and so getting on, just getting in front of people is great. Highly recommend it.
But just getting some, getting some training, even, even at a basic level, is really important. And Hayley, I just want to share a statistic with your audience.
And this is, this was a study that was done in America recently, and what I say to people, it was done in the US, but western country, you can take those statistics, and there’s a fair correlation in other developed countries, whether it’s Australia, Europe or wherever, 78% of the population has some level of fear and or anxiety around speaking in public, right at some level, two thirds of men, at two thirds of women, 1/3 of men.
Hayley Osborne
Statistically, that annoys me,
Con Koutsikas
yeah. But you know, tell you what’s interesting is that in all the work that I do, in all my workshops, statistically, that’s the breakdown, two thirds of women, 1/3 men.
It’s nuts and it shows every single time, but so two thirds of statistics indicate that people who have improved speaking and or communication skills earn up to 15% more and have a 10% more likelihood of advancement within their careers.
Hayley Osborne
Yeah. So, there you go. That’s a
Con Koutsikas
statistic,
Hayley Osborne
right? There is a statistic, yep. Do you think, can I just stop you? Do you think, considering where I’m at in my life right now, not me specifically, because I have been working and running my business the whole way through, but do you think that percentage is the way it is because women stop to grow humans.
Con Koutsikas
I’m, I’ve, I’ve got some views, and my one of the things, and I’m, I’m all for women earning, you know, if you do the same job, you get the same money. Like, like, yeah, I don’t care. I don’t care.
Hayley Osborne
I think that our views will be very similar. Because, again, like, if we’re all meant to be like, only women can have the babies, and men can’t like,
Con Koutsikas
but we’re on. Where I’m going with this is that if you do the same job, you get the same money, right? No question what potentially may be a challenge.
And I’m not saying this is right or this is wrong. Yeah, if two thirds of that 78% that have some elements of fear are females, then potentially, are they holding themselves back because they don’t have the communication skills and the confidence to potentially negotiate their package, to negotiate for that position or put themselves up, is that potentially what it may be Yeah, saying it is yeah, potentially it could be Yeah. The other statistics very quickly, is that out of all that, out of all that research, only 8% of people seek professional help.
Hayley Osborne
Yeah, wow. So that’s just like, I figure, yeah, it kind of cancels itself out. Will you be your own worst enemy? If you know, yeah, I know.
And what a shame. Like women should just back themselves a little bit more, I think, because once you kind of lean into your power, it’s you know, your opportunities are endless. That’s a really interesting percentage.
Con Koutsikas
And just a really quick story I’d like to share just for the benefit of your listeners. I had a lady attend my last workshop, and in the fourth session, she said to me, she, you know, can, can I speak to you? And, of course, you know, as you run a workshop, and you, you think the worst, yeah, oh, my God. She wants a refund.
And, and she said to me, con, I have to tell you this, this workshop has changed my life. Oh, that’s gone. Wow. Okay. I said, now. So, she said I’m in a role, in a sales role, that people don’t leave this company, they don’t leave.
And she said I’ve been wanting a job in another role for six years. And she said doing your workshop has given me the courage and the confidence to leave my current role, where nobody ever leaves to apply for this other job, and she said, I got it, and I start in two weeks’ time. Oh
Hayley Osborne
my gosh, I love those stories so much. Yeah, it’s lovely. You know, I’ll say this too, if it wasn’t for my Podcast, the podcast has given me the confidence to speak publicly very easily, which is crazy, because I’ve interviewed a lot of people, but it’s all it also gave me the confidence to be able to show up and be filmed Fauci business builders like I backed myself and went to Sydney to do that.
And had it not been for this consistent public speaking and talking to people and being on other people’s podcasts and standing up in front of a room that is very daunting. So, I think if I can do it, anyone can do it. And I think when you can nail that as a competitive advantage of your own, as a business owner, I think you’re a very powerful force to be reckoned with, absolutely.
Con Koutsikas
And you know, sadly, there’s a misconception that people who are either eloquent speakers or have the confidence to stand up and address a group are born with it. And nothing could be further from the truth. It’s a skill that can be taught and B, it can be learned.
So, if you’re prepared to put yourself out there, just like anything else you know, whether you’re learning about social media, marketing, videography, whatever the case may be, communication and public speaking skills are the same,
Hayley Osborne
very interesting. And I guess too, like with that communication, storytelling, public speaking. So, it’s coming out of your mouth. We need to master that well as business owners, to replicate that personality in words on our websites and social media platforms, because 99% of people are going to Google you before they pick up the phone, and you are more likely to get the job, or win the tender, or, you know, get new clients.
If you are aligned throughout, how you are in person is how you are on your website, is how you are on your socials is, you know, and if you can’t do that, if you feel like, you know, there’ll be there’s becoming a disconnect, then reassess and realign and redo everything, because there’s nothing worse than not feeling aligned. And yeah, in your power, we have to
Con Koutsikas
be congruent. And you know that’s as you’ve mentioned, as a marketing expert across all our platforms, from a communication perspective, our body language and our tonality need to be congruent with what’s coming out of our mouths.
If it’s not, it’s creating an issue with your custom or your potential customer, your staff, your audience. So, we need to be congruent absolutely, you know, across the board that question,
Hayley Osborne
let’s backtrack a little bit, because I just started off by asking you, like the fire questions, how did you start? How did you get into this? Tell me your story. Because I love these stories, because these stories are what give people motivation, that if he can do it, I can do it right.
Yeah. And story, so I think everyone else
Con Koutsikas
should, and my story is exactly like that. Hayley, yes. And I’m sure you get people that look at you and just assume that you were always confident and bubbly and I get the same thing, you know, people go, oh, you’ve always been like that.
And there was a time in my life I spent 25 plus years in the commercial furniture industry as both a business owner and as an employee of an organization.
Hayley Osborne
I love these stories so much,
Con Koutsikas
and a big part of what I did was business development, negotiating with potential clients. But also, there was a high level of sales involved. And I’m talking, you know, 20 plus years ago now. You know, we were negotiating 1.5 to 2 million plus dollar contracts
Hayley Osborne
a lot back then.
Con Koutsikas
Yeah, yeah, big, big coin, yeah, and, and I reached a point with both my business and a relationship that could be at best described as catastrophic, and I reached a point where it was a bit of a real down point in my life.
And I lost my mojo, I lost my confidence, I lost my self-esteem. I became withdrawn, my business, failed, my relationship, I ended it which was which needed to go. So that was, that was a big tick there, and it was a real existential crisis at that time. And I was listening to an audio book by a famous American motivational speaker, Zig Ziglar, and he said one of the best ways that you can build your confidence and your self-esteem was to learn to speak in public.
And so, I thought, Great, that’s me, and I, he mentioned an organization called Toastmasters, which is an international nonprofit public speaking organization. And so, I sought a club here and went down there and club this, stairs down, goes downstairs. And I reckon I went up and down those stairs four times with that conflict. You know, one voice going, come on, you gotta do this.
You got to do this. You got to do this. And the other one going, run, run, yes and eventually, up and down three, four times, and somebody heard me. So, you know, I had nowhere to go, and I joined not because I wanted to learn to speak in public, to coach and train or stand on a stage where you are now.
Yeah, I wanted my mojo back. I wanted combat, you know, the confidence to go to a networking event and have an engaging conversation, to be able to ask for things, to be able to do the things that I knew I could do. And that’s what it gave me. That’s what it gave me back as a consequence.
I got good feedback. I had a couple of people who asked me to help them co facilitate some workshops, which I did, and I just got a kick out of that. I just absolutely got a buzz
Hayley Osborne
out. Yeah, the fire got lit. And you were like, the fire got lit, and am I meant to be doing this? Yeah, and
Con Koutsikas
the rest, the rest, as they say, is history. And, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s another really, really funny story, which, which I’ll give you the real short version, because you’ll find it amusing.
I went to a professional personal development thing in America many years ago, and the guy running it, you know, he said, well, you’re going to do a meditation to find your purpose, right? I’m going great, because I wanted to know what my purpose was.
Did this meditation? You know, your being is going to come down. They’re going to give you a golden box. You’re going to lift the lid, and inside is a sign or a signal of what your purpose is. So, I’ve gone through this meditation, lifted the lid, and there’s a microphone in there, and this was the way, and I’m going, what the heck, yeah. So, it’s funny how things work out.
Hayley Osborne
It is so funny. I just look at my life now, and it is incredibly funny, because before I was married and had children, I knew that I couldn’t continue to work at a very high level, demanding a corporate day job and being the mum that I wanted to be.
I knew that, even though I didn’t even know my husband, and I used to look at people, like, stressing at five o’clock, like, or what, you know, I gotta go home to my kids, or I gotta, like, negotiate school, pick up, or I’ve gotta do this, or I’ve gotta do that.
And I thought, geez, so I kind of want that life, you know, but this is like, 15 years ago, you know, maybe even a little bit more, and then it kind of grew and grew, and yeah, now I’m in this situation where I’ve started this for a reason, and the original reason for starting my business was not to well, was flexibility, right?
But not around like a family and kids and things. It was more like I didn’t want to have a boss anymore, and I had an opportunity, and I took it, and I was really good at what I did. And I thought, well, I can’t help that many people are stuck in a corporate job. I can help more people if I work for myself.
And now the byproduct all these years later is, oh, wow, I am able to, you know, I have a thriving business, and I am there for my kids all the time. And it’s just so funny looking back, going, I could never have predicted that. It’s like the microphone in the box. But everything happens for a reason, and you’re meant to be where you are. And
Con Koutsikas
if you had a Tommy, if you had a Tommy 10 years ago, I’d be doing this. I would have, I would have had you certified and
Hayley Osborne
you’re going to have a podcast, by the way. What is a podcast? Crazy? Yeah, no, I love the story. So, tell me a little bit about how your actual business works. Like, where? How can people find you? How can they work with you that are listening, that I really like con he sounds like such a nice guy.
I am at a crossroads in my life. I want to get my confidence back, or I want to become the best public speaker the world has ever seen. How can people work with you?
Con Koutsikas
There’s a number of ways. First of all, if you go onto my website, which is my name.com, so com in the show notes.
Hayley Osborne
Show Notes, because your last name might be hard for people to spell. Yeah,
Con Koutsikas
no, so we’ll put it in the show notes, and you can, first of all, there’s a free 15-minute consult, because just like anything else, you can’t offer a solution until you have an understanding of what the problem or the challenge is. So, I like to get to know my potential clients, to understand where they’re at and what they want to achieve.
Beyond that, I have a workshop, which I run here in Adelaide. It’s, it’s alive, it’s, it’s essentially one on one training, but in a group environment, it’s because they do a presentation every session. They receive live feedback. And I’ve actually got one which starts on the 29th and if anybody’s interested in Adelaide, there’s only two spots left.
So, if you’re really, really keen on that, aside after that, what about after that? Yeah. Why not? Yeah, we missed that year Fair enough. After that, there’ll probably be another one in November. Stay tuned. Details on the website and beyond that, I offer, I have my one-on-one elite Coaching and Mentoring Program, which I offer, and I also do corporate training, so if any organizations are looking to upskill their people with improving speaking and communication skills.
I certainly can create a program to achieve the outcomes that they’re looking for. Yep,
Hayley Osborne
and you are all over Instagram and Facebook and everything, and you can follow what? How do we follow you? What are you? Instagram handle
Con Koutsikas
that’s
Hayley Osborne
all the same. It’s,
Con Koutsikas
It’s on Instagram. I think it’s the concuss, but there’s Hayley. There’s not many of us. In fact, there’s only, there’s only one of me, and that goes back to my parental bloodlines. But so, Facebook, concuss said that you want this.
There’s no one else you’ll find my Facebook, LinkedIn, LinkedIn profile, and, yeah, it’s all there.
Hayley Osborne
Yes, con, this has been so lovely, and it’s so nice to have someone like you come in to add an extra layer into what, you know a marketing plan should be containing in the future, because if you’ve always done what you’ve always done, you’ll always have whatever that saying is, right?
And so, a lot of people don’t think about these things, but this is just a nice value add with lots of gusto, and I love that so much. So, thank you for joining me today, I will put everything in the show notes that will be on my website, and obviously, if you follow me on social media, con will be on my social media as you’re listening to this, so you can follow him that way as well. Thank you, con. Thank you
Con Koutsikas
very much. Hayley, it’s been an absolute pleasure and I trust your audience got some value out of our conversation. Bye, bye.
Hayley Osborne
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